You know how some tribes have a strong sense of orientation and navigate using cardinal directions?
I want to try to obtain this sense.
I made a page that makes a sound every time I face North; and, in intervals, directional sounds coming from where North is.
Will that work?
Note: I’ll resolve this very subjectively, something like whether I’m aware of the cardinal directions and can navigate using them/track them after looking at a compass once.
Update 2025-05-13 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has clarified that the resolution will consider:
Whether they learn the skill by using an amount of effort they find reasonable to put into it.
This will factor into their subjective assessment of whether the proposed learning method works for them.
Update 2025-05-14 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): * The market is not a prediction of the creator's time commitment or dedication, but rather whether the learning method itself will work for them. This determination is subject to the creator applying what they consider a reasonable amount of effort, as previously clarified.
The creator may resolve to N/A if personal acquaintances convince them their overall handling or interpretation of this market is incorrect.
Update 2025-06-12 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has clarified that their current level of ability, while showing progress, is not yet sufficient for a YES resolution. Specific examples of abilities that are currently considered insufficient for a "Yes" include:
Successfully sensing the direction of North in an unfamiliar airport after briefly viewing a map (e.g., 10 minutes prior).
Precisely remembering the direction of North in familiar locations where their app was used.
The creator stated, "It’s far from the level I’d want to resolve this to Yes at but there’s clearly progress."
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It’s on AppStore! I’ve taken Gwern’s recommendations, so there’s also a vibration mode that just vibrates when you point your phone North (including when the app is working on the background), so you don’t have to walk around in headphones.
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sonic-compass/id6746952992
There’s a huge todo list on GitHub; if anyone wants to prompt any of the models for help, that would be greatly appreciated :)
[Deleted]
@Xelad102c fyi the market description contains "Note: I’ll resolve this very subjectively, something like whether I’m aware of the cardinal directions and can navigate using them/track them after looking at a compass once." If you have ideas for how to organize an independent confirmation, it might be very fun to try that, though!
@Eric_WVGG I’ll probably continue to occasionally use it and I’m definitely still tracking the directions. Not sure why you’re saying the experiment should’ve lasted longer?
Okay I think that basically worked! I can normally tell where’s North with less than a second of thinking unless I used a teleport (=the tube) somewhere new and haven’t looked at the compass yet. Often can tell even during the teleport (because I know in which direction the train is going), but generally, i track it much better when navigating outside than inside. Navigation does feel slightly more intuitive (I now have more of a picture of where everything is relative to me).
Note that the market asked about “cardinal directions” and I’m only aware of North; figuring out everything else is needed rarely and so takes effort (I first have to think about the rotation of east/west relative to north and can tell where those are only then), but I think this is basically fine/doesn’t matter for the purpose of the question. (Interestingly, if I know I’m in a train travelling from east to west, I can tell where’s North immediately, even though figuring out where’s east and west if I know I’m facing North takes thinking).
I’m still planning to add the extra features to the app, but those apparently weren’t needed.
@ms the (extremely dumb) trick I use is: west is kind of like the letter w + east. The W is to the left. So if I'm facing north west is on the left.
@Odoacre I normally imagine the map of the world 🗺️— I know where West and East are on the map, but it takes a moment to translate that into them relative to the real-world direction of North
@ms congrats!
I think I had roughly this level of awareness about the directions for most of my life without puting much deliberate effort into it, so I bet yes because I knew it should be achievable.
(Kind of late with the advice, not sure why I didn't write that earlier), but a thing I might add is that if you want to get better at it, be aware of the Sun. Always track where the Sun is, observe the path of the Sun during the day, note where exactly it sets and rises, etc. I think the concepts of cardinal directions and the daily path of the Sun across the sky are kind of merged in my brain, so I don't have the problem of "if I know where the North is, I still need effort to figure out everything else", it's just that asking "which way is North" and imagining solar trajectory is the same mental motion, so all the directions lock in simultaneously.
And because the height of the Sun changes during the day, if you're used to doing it that way, you can just look at the Sun and immediately approximately know both the time and the directions. Also helps to pinpoint the directions back if you lost them while inside, if you can look out the window.
But doesn't work if overcast though. A huge downside.
@ms sounds like you already figured it out, but I always use "east is clockwise of north" to figure it out.
@StepanBakhmarin I live in London. We have a bit too much sun at the moment, but that’s fairly unusual.
@Odoacre that reminds me of an artist I know who tattooed the letters L and R on her wrists
She tells people it’s the initials of her siblings, but really it’s because she can’t keep left and right straight
I’ll try to add to the app:
- offsetting static phone rotation (e.g., if the phone is in a pocket)
- vibration when you face north and don’t have headphones (idea by Gwern)
- spatial audio for AirPods with head tracking (make the sound still come from North if I turn my head)
(Unclear whether the sounds being relative to the phone and not head might actually be better for learning.)
I think the market is underpriced
I wasn’t tracking it on the background, but was able to, e.g., successfully feel the direction of north in an airport I’ve not been at before that looked at a map of 10min prior to that, in a subjectively very short amount of time.
In places I’ve been before, especially if I used the app there, I precisely remember the direction of North, more accurately than everyone else (e.g., among 10 random people at Lighthaven, everyone after having a think .pointed approximately in the direction that makes sense from remembering the map but was off because streets perpendicular to Telegraph are rotated relative to the cardinal directions.
It’s far from the level I’d want to resolve this to Yes at but there’s clearly progress.
Okay, I decided to vibecode this thing
That took longer than expected, which means that I'll actually attempt this bc sunk costs!
You can test it: https://testflight.apple.com/join/aXBknTwr
It actually works in the background and isn't annoying!
@Eric_WVGG don’t be blindfolded. Turn on the learning mode and set the direction frequency to 2s. Use it on the background whenever you have a phone in your hand. After you’re used to it and can feel the direction of north in known spaces, increase the frequency and go for a walk in unknown spaces.
I have no clue how often/for how long it makes sense to use it, but basically, at some point, you want it to be at 60s while you’re going around making turns, and you want to predict where the directional sound will come from after you hear the non-directional signal.
Found https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/talk-compass/id1540530352, it seems to work on the background! Though can’t be set to only play a sound on North
To clarify: I intended to spend some limited amount of time trying to learn it, and then resolve depending on the results. I have not spent almost any time on it over the past month, hence the extension. Nowhere in the description I said anything like “by the original close time”. I don’t think extending the close time misleads anyone in terms of the bets they’ve placed, unless anyone was betting specifically on “Mikhail doesn’t find time to practice this before the close time”, which is very remote from what the question is about.
This market is going to be managed and resolved subjectively: it is about a personal thing.
@ms thanks for the clarification. I think it's pretty reasonable for folks to assume you're going to attempt [thing] by [close date] - if I set up a market right now for whether I'd be able to juggle 10 objects and the close date was Friday, naturally people take that to be my goal to successfully juggle. there isn't anything to predict if I'm going to keep pushing out the date until I can either do it or I give up on being able to because it's too hard/I changed my mind/I lost an arm/whatever. if a market asks whether I'll be able to juggle 10 objects with 100 hours of practice, it's equally reasonable for people to assume I'll keep track of how many hours I'm practicing and adjust the close date accordingly.
@shankypanky yeah, that seems reasonable, but also I don't think there would've been many bets made differently.
More importantly, the spirit of the market is whether I'll learn a thing by using the amount of effort I'll find reasonable to put into it; and the market actually asks whether a way to learn that thing will work. I can't resolve the market until I know whether or not it works.
There is also a note in the market description saying I’ll resolve this very subjectively; I don't think this should be intervened on by the mods. I have no idea why so many people who I don't know me are betting on my personal market, and I guess will need to put even more explicit disclaimers in the future markets, but it's in general somewhat annoying to have to think about the details which are not relevant to the question that is interesting to me here.
@ms I don't care that much, and i've sold out my position because I don't want to be in this market anymore as a bettor, but I think it's diningenous to act surprised when people say they made bets based on whether you could accomplish the thing by the close date, and then you go radio silent about it and extend the date by double in the last hours.
The problem with your last reply to mine is you have assumed that my estimations were based solely on the difficulty of the task, but that's not accurate. when I see a market (especially a personal goal one), besides the simple question of whether the task is even doable in any capacity, people consider how much dedication it might take, or how consistent someone would need to be to accomplish it.
I will concede to you that it's not 100% NECESSARY to say in your market title or description "by the close date". But unless you say any other date or time, this is the deadline people assume! and you have been on this website long enough to know that I think based on your net worth and trading history lol.
You can run your market however you please, and good luck on your goal. I wish you the best, but I don't think you should act surprised or confused about how extending the market run time by double would upset or confuse traders (or update their estimations greatly!).
I agree completely with what I feel @No_uh and @shankypanky are patiently and carefully explaining. I'm glad to have been able to sell my stake at a minimal loss.
@ms I sold my (small) stakes long ago, but as another data point: I too understood the close date to be the implicit deadline when the result would be evaluated.
In general I think it's more appropriate to create a new market when you want to keep trying the thing and it wasn't very clear from the start that the market might extend. (A little late now for this market, though, since now people have probably traded on the extension.)
@No_uh if you look at my other recent markets, when the question is about whether something will happen by some date,I always specify it even when I set the closing date to be the same as the date in question.
This market explicitly asks whether a method will work, not whether I’ll put in time/dedication.
Please don’t trade on my personal markets if you don’t know me and are going to be lawyering about something that says it will resolve subjectively.
If anyone who knows me personally thinks I’m wrong, please tell me, I’ll resolve this to N/A.
@ms don’t resolve NA. The debate on whether sense of direction is innate or learned is so much more interesting than the debates about close date etiquette. I think you can train a sense of direction, no question. Thanks for creating this market. Please do your experiment and let us know what you learn!