I hope to see the supporters from both sides. I read through comments, will ask questions back and i will try to review proofs (unless overwhelmed by amount).
This should be seen as a debate where the win is defined by success of convincing me.
Current status: i am confused. I used to watch Bernie Sanders last year. Today i saw in yt his video about starvation in gaza. Then immediately I saw videos from BBC and CNN on the same theme, but their commentary did not match the videos they were showing. So first question is: is there famine in gaza? Who's fault it is (israel? Hamas? Un distribution programme?)?
This market is guaranteed to resolve either 100% or 0% in a month. If at the end of August I believe that everyone is faulty, then i will decide who is the greater evil.
Note, that this is not just about hunger, but also about war in general. I have seen over instagram people saying Israel wants eradicate palestinians. Is that true?
Update 2025-07-31 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator will share any related videos they watch in the comments to provide insight into the information influencing their decision.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has stated a preference for a "logical approach" in arguments. They find arguments based on conditional reasoning (e.g., "what will happen if...") and historical precedent more persuasive than arguments using what they describe as "loud words" (e.g., genocide, apartheid).
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has provided more specific details on what they find persuasive:
Claims using what the creator calls "loud words" (e.g., genocide, famine) require strong evidence.
A key test of Israel's intentions would be their reaction to a potential hostage-for-withdrawal deal.
The creator is currently skeptical that Israel controls food distribution after it has crossed the border into Gaza and is looking for evidence on this point.
The creator is seeking official statements from Hamas regarding their goals in the conflict.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator will only consider open-source information and will not view paywalled articles. Additional insights into their reasoning include:
Skepticism towards interpretations of evidence (e.g., polls) that infer intent beyond what is explicitly stated.
The presence of a large Arab population in Israel is seen by the creator as a counter-argument to claims of a general desire for ethnic cleansing.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator is evaluating the question of whether Israel has provoked hunger in Gaza. They have specified a need for a high standard of evidence on this point, requiring a clear 'chain of information custody' with specific statistics and verifiable sources, rather than abstract media reports.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator is skeptical of the reliability of polls conducted in Gaza during the conflict. They question how such polls can be methodologically sound and verifiable, suggesting arguments based on them will likely be considered unpersuasive.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator is seeking arguments that address two new specific questions:
The possibility of Israel withdrawing from Gaza while building a more effective border defense.
The reasons behind Israel's security failure on October 7th.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has expressed skepticism that eradicating Hamas is possible. They reason that Hamas is an ideology (a "meme" in the original sense) that can continuously recruit new supporters, suggesting arguments based on the premise of eliminating Hamas may be unpersuasive.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator is evaluating the long-term consequences of a potential hostage-for-withdrawal deal. A persuasive argument should address the question: What should Israel do after signing the deal?
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): In a discussion about whether Hamas can be eradicated, the creator elaborated on their reasoning. They believe that ideologies (or "memes" in their words) that are based on emotion are more resilient and harder to extinguish than those that are not.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator is now seeking arguments addressing the motivation for taking hostages, specifically why they were taken and what the aim was.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): When asking about the motivation for taking hostages, the creator has clarified they are interested in arguments concerning both Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners/detainees.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): In response to accusations of bias, the creator has clarified their debate methodology. They state that their approach is to question and "confront" arguments from both sides to better understand each position, not as an indication of a pre-existing leaning.
Update 2025-08-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): In response to a user's question, the creator clarified what is meant by 'supporting Palestine' for the No outcome. A successful argument for No must convincingly define which entity or group constitutes 'Palestine' in this context (e.g., a specific organization, the Palestinian people, a territory, etc.).
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Who exactly are you referring to regarding the possibility of supporting Palestine? The state? The Palestinians? Something/someone else? If the former, who exactly? Who effectively controls which parts of Palestine? OR who won which elections (insofar as you'd consider them to be sufficiently legitimizing) or leads which kinds of polls?
@FelixMaps i used the word palestine, because it was used in the protests in the western world i saw. Understanding who exactly might those protesters support is also indirectly a part of what i want to understand. (If people convince me that i should support palestine, that would definitely be with reason, which makes it clear which palestine/org/territory was meant)
But since they talked about famine, and i heard "the resistance forces in gaza", i assumed that means Hamas. But they never mention Hamas as part of the conflict (which is confusing) and some media exclusively say "liberation army" (which is also confusing).
Consider me poorly informed person who knows nothing. I would like to read you explanation how those "palestine" concepts differ. Especially in the context of recognition from 4 countries
@Henry38hw Don't think I have the knowledge to give any differentiated answer, so I'll leave this to someone who does. Just seems pretty clear to me in discussion that people have quite different things in mind when they speak pro/contra Palestine
People seem to be confusing the question of which side should be supported with the question of which side will Henry38hw support. Because they seem pro-Israel in their first messages, one can determine their leaning. This debate will do nothing but further entrench them in the side that they agree more with and the side that people are generally arguing against, that is how humans work in my experience.
@MaxE you misinterpret my approach. The first commenter was pro palestine in my eyes, so i confronted him. If the first commenter was pro israel, i would confront him. My aim is to ask questions to understand both sides.
@Henry38hw this is simply what it comes off as, in my view. If having an opinion is a „mistake“ (it is impossible for a person not to lean on a direction), then that’s only true because of the specific opinion.
I, however, was just telling you what it looked like to me. And that is, that you lean in a direction
@Henry38hw The Israeli hostages are pretty self explanatory. Hamas kidnapped Israelis on 10/7 and those are the hostages. Palestinian hostages are a bit lesser known. Israeli military in the west bank have been known to detain Palestinians there with no charge and place them in "administrative detention". Technically this period should after 3 months but Israeli courts reserve the power to extend the period even longer once the 3 months end so they just keep on doing that. So they're essentially prisoners held without charge. Hostages.
@epicgames so what is the point of holding both types of hostages?
Also, why Israel side is so sure their people are still alive somewhere deep in Hamas tunnels?
@Henry38hw Why are you arguing about whether the hostages are alive? That wasn't part of your original question at all.
They were taken (by both sides) because this is a conflict and they can be used as a bargaining chip. I don't see how that shows which side is worse.
@Henry38hw Hamas took hostages to have leverage over israel for a prisoner swap I imagine. Likewise, Israelis believe the Israeli hostages are alive because Hamas only stands to lose leverage should they kill the hostages. In fact, I would argue that the safety of the hostages are more endangered by the war than under Hamas
@MaxE How am i supposed to judge without scanning through all the parts of the conflict? I ask about anything that i might not understand fully.
@Henry38hw If this was true, languages would never go extinct, as languages are memes too
@Henry38hw The goal isn't to eliminate every single member of Hamas or person who wants to join Hamas. The goal is to complete remove Hamas from any effective power or control over Gaza (or the West Bank). Similar to the way ISIS lost all its territory and was removed from power.
@Henry38hw I mean that you overblow capability of Hamas meme to spread. People around Hamas meme carriers should be vulnerable to being infected with such kind of mind virus for it to spread. Remove this vulnerability and you can eradicate Hamas. How to remove it? Now, this is a good question in itself.