Consent Communities and Creators Effortpost from a GymFlair

I am Jakobokaj, the caller from yesterday who spoke to Destiny yesterday morning and later on during the group call. I wanted to go over some thoughts about the conversation, a few points I felt I was unable to make clearly, and criticisms of some people involved in this.

All claims and judgements I will be making in this will be based on only the most charitable read of this situation which both Destiny, Supreme and Ahrelevent all staked out their initial positions from.

https://youtu.be/sEQ1CxcNsxA&t=25657s Roughly a 2 minute watch

My best attempt at a good faith grab of important quotes.

MG"she says I'm not ready"

MG"is completely frozen but it looks like she is ready but she says she's not ready"

W"you should stop"

MG"but I didnt"

MG"my sense was that she wanted me to not be able to stop myself"

MG"it felt like — something about the way she was looking at me gave me the sense that it was like a game and that's what I was supposed to do"

Destiny quotes;

"it actually might be the case that is what she wanted at the time"

"there is some chance that when she said she was not ready she truly was not."

"if we push forward with an 80% success rate ⅕ women are being raped"

My stance/thoughts:

There is never a time on a first meeting of a person where they can give an explicit verbal statement of non consent and it is acceptable to continue based on a sense/feeling/look/interpreted game.

Sometimes this interpretation may be correct. Despite this, there is no human in the entire world who will be correct about this 100% of the time. Even with Destinys’ statement of someone who is right 80% I would still absolutely call that person a rapist.

We should also treat anyone who rolls the dice on ignoring an explicit statement on non consent as a rapist regardless of whether the person they had sex with felt like they were raped or not. This is because they acted INDISTINGUISHABLY from how a rapist who misinterpreted the signals would act. Legally its possible this may not be a rape, but that should not change our moral condemnation. This is similar to how someone attempted murder and someone who commits murder should be judged the same, because their intentions and actions were the same and the outcome is irrelevant.

I think saying this situation does not make someone a rapist is almost definitionaly rape enabling, as you are using your large platform to tell audience members that while “its probably not good” that you can do this and it still end up okay. I vehemently disagree with that statement and think giving that messaging will directly lead to more people being raped.

I think this situation also brings a lot of light to one of the most common things that fuels victims to be uncomfortable coming forward and rapists to be protected. When you hear an accusation and you only know one party you will almost always have a MAJOR bias in interpretation. If you have generally positive impressions of one party and the other is entirely anonymous you will almost always favor the side you know to a dangerous degree. This is a huge part of what fuels the pushback against rape accusations in places like Fraternities and the Military. I feel this is also happening with nearly every streamer involved in this situation. I have/had generally positive impressions of every person I am going to mention in this document, but I strongly believe that if they had just been given the details and had not known Max/MrGirl their stances would have been different after hearing the story and more in line with what I stated.

I am comfortable making these claims with the MOST CHARITABLE reading, even defending this hypothetical without any other personal details or other knowledge of Max deserves criticism. Anyone who continued their defense as more information came to light (shaelin video/further clips on the rape/MrGirls personal behaviors) deserve these same criticisms for running cover to a higher degree.

Thoughts/Criticisms of Individuals:

Jakobokaj(me):

I came in far far too hot, this was entirely unproductive for the overall conversation and worked against my own goals going in. Even if I was emotional about how people were handling the topic that isn't an excuse, if I can't control that I shouldn't be making these arguments and should cede the space to someone else

I had my anger and energy directed in the wrong direction, I gave Ahrelevent far more smoke than he deserved and regretted that deeply.

I was “soy” as chat put it, even if some of these terms are correct me saying things like rape culture or lokis’ wagers are goofy and make me look dumb while also turning people against me.

I misused affirmative consent and am a dumb fuck for bringing that term up, I meant enthusiastic consent. But I shouldn't use any terms I'm not 100% on as that led to a lot of confusion.

I probably shouldn't have even jumped into a group call like this on a sensitive topic like this one, I’m not used to these situations and was unable to hold my own for a lot of it. If I had issues I should have just tried to have 1:1 conversations or written my thoughts down as I’m doing now.

I am certain there are many more criticisms I am vulnerable to, please feel free to bring them up.

Broad group who all defended MrGirls actions as not rape:

Stardust, MindWaves, Chud Logic and anyone else who defended him even after the video I posted in this link deserves some criticism in my eyes. The longer these people continue to do so the harsher that criticism deserves to be. I'm confident I left people out in this list so feel free to mention more in the comments.

Destiny:

I really appreciate him letting me have that initial chat with him, he had no need to do so as I am just a random from the audience calling to complain. But he heard all my criticisms, honestly engaged with them and even explained his thought process back to me.

I still disagree with his stance even from just the initial dyson sphere video. And at the end of the group call yesterday it seemed like he possibly had shifted from that slightly too in the time span since our initial 1:1 call. u/neodestiny Would you be willing to restate your thoughts on my broader hypothetical given in the first video?

Ahrelevent:

Probably shouldn’t have been on the call making claims while knowing there is relevant information he has yet to see.

Engaged super honestly despite me coming in like a dickhead throwing some pretty wild accusations at him, and brought a lot of good hypotheticals up that I wish we had a chance to explore better without the dynamic of a group call going all over.

Still don’t like his initial defense, and even more against his continued defense as further information came out, but it was really big of him to instantly back off after he saw the final clip. I'd love a chance to chat with him a bit more 1:1 in a far more chill environment about his thoughts on why he wouldn't be comfortable making the same call sooner.

WickedSupreme:

This is the one I have the most to say about, prior to the last few days I've had a very high opinion of Supreme. That has entirely fallen away and now I'm wondering if it was all an illusion or he just dug in on some pretty abhorrent takes.

First of all there is the initial criticism of everyone on this list.

Second is Supreme took an extreme level of defense of MrGirl directly in the last few days both on streams and in DGG and directly fueled the sentiment that disgusted me enough to make my initial call. He was giving EXPLICIT rape enabling statements in DGG which I consider worth condemning. Saying stuff like this will cause more people to think ignoring a verbal no is okay, and will make it harder for victims to come forward by perpetuating an idea that even if you EXPLICITLY SAY NO there will be infinite skeptics like supreme out there ready to defend your rapist until their dying breath, while creating more of them through his rhetoric.

https://imgur.com/a/aZUoEz0

He Is an exceptionally dishonest person in this call, any time I would ask him a direct question he would dodge he would get smug, then try to use my inexperience in these formats against me by saying stuff like “youre not smart enough to understand” or “you’re not listening” when asked a very simple and direct question, this happened at least 3 times and is because he knows he cant defend his take. Its true I often did ask people to repeat themselves, but that wasn't because I didn't understand or listen, it was because I didn't want to put words in anyone's mouth and was trying to avoid a loop where I get told I misinterpreted someone.

Here is one example https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx0IE1ELtW0TlfnueOBbrO0eEPEXIOEdZx

This then continued in a text format later where he spent over an hour repeating this same tactic where he would pretend he had taken a position when he had not, and when finally forced to hold a stance. He would squirm around and only give out at most a “personally I think its not good” handwave while still being unwilling to address why he ran so much cover for MrGirl. I want to be very clear that I was also antagonistic in this conversation and you can see the full logs in Destinys discord if you're worried about me having clipped this out of context. But it went on too long to give a full log dump, and this should illustrate the fact he is unwilling/scared to engage fully instead of running away, just like in the call.

https://imgur.com/a/YHyiX1Y

What I hope for:

I really hope everyone who has defended that clip of MrGirl in the past takes a bit of time to look at why they did that, and if they could go back in time WITHOUT knowing who MrGirl actually was if they would do the same thing today. I think it is exceptionally important to be careful when engaging with very very risky topics such as when ignoring a verbal statement of non consent acceptable.

OBAMNA LULW

@RockPuppy