The justification of "the button is needed to help new users understand how loans work" keeps being given any time people complain about the button. This seems false.
The button could show up for new users and then switch to happening automatically after a few days, or after they confirm.
There could be automatic loans, with a popup notification the first time to explain what it is.
There could be a toggle in the settings menu to turn off the button and turn on automatic loans.
Etc.
I have explained this multiple times; every time the pro-button crowd brings this up in a discussion that I'm in, I point out that this justification is clearly false. Usually I'm ignored and this (false) justification continues being given, which is frustrating. Am I missing something here?
1,000🏅 Top traders
| # | Trader | Total profit |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ṁ30 | |
| 2 | Ṁ25 | |
| 3 | Ṁ1 | |
| 4 | Ṁ1 | |
| 5 | Ṁ0 |
This is wrong end of telescope The non-button was unintuitive, didn't mirror how a margin works in a financial market, and evidently at least two superusers did not understand how the non-button loans worked. These traders lost money on a bet because others less Manifold-bubbled than them correctly judged that Manifold users in particular were undervaluing the outcome that then happened. The site bailed them out causing huge moral hazard that could have been avoided if button had existed in first place. Button was overdue. No one is beefing about the button except people who are used to not having it.
@IsaacKing Suit yourself. When someone tells me I'm looking through the wrong end of the telescope, I consider the possibility they may be right. I don't always decide they are. But it's a good habit.
@ClubmasterTransparent If you want to convince someone else that they're mistaken, you have to actually explain what the mistake is. Simply telling them they're mistaken accomplishes nothing.
You consistently conflate "The button helps with user education" with "The button is the only way to educate users" and "the button's current implementation is ideal". It's silly to so aggressively misrepresent people you talk with
Edit: I understand you place heavy emphasis on "justify", as in it's not enough for the button to be useful it has to be a good change. I see the button as a work in progress that is moving towards being overall justified
@Tumbles Seems like a motte-and-bailey. "There exists a minor benefit from the button" is a trivially obvious fact that there'd be no point in bringing up. As such, it seems more likely that people who mention it are trying to make the stronger claim that the educational benefit of the button is actually a good reason for having the button.
Maybe the button is a work in progress and will be improved in the future, and that'd be great! My claim is simply about the current button. It was poorly thought out and would have been easy to implement properly the first time. Instead Manifold forced this terrible version on us for weeks, wasting endless time arguing about it rather than just admitting it's bad.
@IsaacKing I have not been following the button discussion, but I actually like the current implementation and don't think it's bad at all.
Can you explain what you dislike about the button ?
For myself:
I have an (admittedly somewhat irrational) dislike of loans and I hated how the previous system forced them on me.
I already have more mana than I can effectively spend and don't need to press the button.
If I did find myself in the situation I need money, I can sell some marginal position and spend that (assuming I have no loans on that marginal position, otherwise selling it is often counterproductive, which is one of the reasons I don't like loans)
If I cant sell anything then as a last resort I can press the button and get a sizeable chunk of mana I can spend on that day.
What's not to like?
@Odoacre Forces me to click it every day if I want all my loans. Pointless waste of time and mental effort.