Resolves to "Yes" if I think that Communism is better than Capitalism for Manifold Market.
Resolves to "No" if I think that Capitalism is better than Communism for Manifold Market.
Resolves to a percentage if it seems like a hard choice between the two.
Resolves to "N/A" if this becomes highly controversial.
I could close the market earlier or later depending on whether I feel that enough discussion has happened.
I will judge based on comments on this market. Philosophy, economics, personal feelings, and appeal to authority (Manifold staff) are all valid ways to convince me.
My definiton of Capitalism in Manifold:
-Maintain most of the current structure.
-Allow and encourage buying in Mana with USD.
-Market Manipulation to maximize profit is kosher. Gambling on markets is kosher. Farming unique trader bonus is kosher. Any exploit to the current system is kosher.
-Minimal mod involvment on markets and user behavior.
My definiton of Communism in Manifold:
-Impose wealth tax on all whales. Impose Universal basic income, giving daily mana allowance to all verified users.
-Markets created by a user can be taken control over if enough participants show the desire to take it over.
-Manifold staff have full control over who can create market, how to resolve a market, who can invest in a market.
-(Possibly have a dictator as well).
1,000🏅 Top traders
| # | Name | Total profit |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ṁ5 | |
| 2 | Ṁ0 | |
| 3 | Ṁ0 | |
| 4 | Ṁ0 | |
| 5 | Ṁ0 |
People are also trading
Market Manipulation to maximize profit is kosher. Gambling on markets is kosher. Farming unique trader bonus is kosher. Any exploit to the current system is kosher.
Yeah . . . Like others have pointed out, this is not capitalism.
Marker manipulation could include false representation, and technical arguments and literal interpretations a capitalist, let's assume, common-law court may not accept.
Unique trader bonus is given by the state. It should not exist in a capitalist society.
Finally, a capitalist system is not for anyone to exploit. There are no bonuses given by a government or governor, but the government protects your freedoms and enforces contracts by the reasonable person standard. The capitalist system is a place where good things can run wild. No, there is nothing to exploit, for it is the most efficient.
@XComhghall
> There are no bonuses given by a government or governor, but the government protects your freedoms..
Herein lies the crux. These two things can not be true at the same time. Freedom presupposes equality.
@AlexbGoode We are speaking of negative freedom in capitalism. Communism alleges positive freedom, but IRL takes away every freedom.
With equality too, you have outcome and opportunity. It is not just that one who kills is equal to one who saves, aye? Capitalism ideally is such a equal system, in which all — anyone — who work hard may accumulate wealth, and leave the total sum of their wealth to their children; in which all are rewarded equally, i.e., in equal proportion to their work.
Look upon your bretheren! Lifted from poverty and ignorance into prosperity by the grace of the Invisible Hand! As Lenin said, "He who does not work shall not eat" - how better to enforce this but profiting only off of information contributed to markets?
-Market Manipulation to maximize profit is kosher. Gambling on markets is kosher. Farming unique trader bonus is kosher. Any exploit to the current system is kosher.
this is not a feature of IRL capitalism, it's a feature of failed states and feudalism. Whether it's 1800s britain or modern america, ownership and market mechanisms are carefully tuned to create competition and growth. "Exploiting the system" is fraud, embezzlement, theft, and looting the commons.
-Minimal mod involvment on markets and user behavior.
There's been minimal mod involvement so far, and it seems to go fine.
-Markets created by a user can be taken control over if enough participants show the desire to take it over.
this would turn every big enough market into a self-resolving gambling market...
If manifold is to predict usefully, a wealth tax dilutes that - make 1k great predictions, and your predictive power is siphoned off to Dgg people who'll buy whichever side seems funnier
Buying mana with USD goes a bit against predictive accuracy, but it's the only way for manifold to continue existing absent free EA bucks, so it seems important
@jacksonpolack
> Look upon your bretheren! Lifted from poverty and ignorance into prosperity by the grace of the Invisible Hand! As Lenin said, "He who does not work shall not eat" - how better to enforce this but profiting only off of information contributed to markets?
So perhaps get rid of daily prediction mana, and make it so that only accurate predictor can get mana in return?
> this is not a feature of IRL capitalism, it's a feature of failed states and feudalism
Fine. I gave me definition (version) of Manifold capitalism tough. You can decide whether my version of Manifold capitalism or Manifold communism is better within my definition. If you create a market about whether communism or capitalism is better under popular/academic definition, I'd subsidize it and participate.
> Markets created by a user can be taken control over if enough participants show the desire to take it over.
> this would turn every big enough market into a self-resolving gambling market...
Just like communism IRL
> If manifold is to predict usefully, a wealth tax dilutes that - make 1k great predictions, and your predictive power is siphoned off to Dgg people who'll buy whichever side seems funnier
People's welfare (i.e. Dgg people having fun) or accuracy of the market, which one is more important?
So perhaps get rid of daily prediction mana, and make it so that only accurate predictor can get mana in return?
It'd be great, but would never happen because manifold is support to be a website where normal people can bet for fun - if you bet 500 on 'will doge coin moooooon' and lose it all, manifold wants you to get some mana back in a week or two
People's welfare (i.e. Dgg people having fun) or accuracy of the market, which one is more important?
It's more fun to bet on complex and high-stakes market than put 100 into DARIUS STOCK because he said a funny word on stream.
@jacksonpolack
> It's more fun to bet on complex and high-stakes market than put 100 into DARIUS STOCK because he said a funny word on stream.
You know what's more fun above all? Whalebait market. It's the only reason I stay in Manifold market
@jacksonpolack I'd argue that the description is pretty close to laissez-faire capitalism.
Modern capitalism, in countries like USA, France, Singapore, Germany, etc. although it still shares some of these principles, has more restrictions: companies are required to supply certain information to investors, and is often diluted with social programs.
The interpretation may not align with modern implementations of capitalism, but I believe it does align with 'pure' capitalism.
Markets created by a user can be taken control over if enough participants show the desire to take it over.
this would turn every big enough market into a self-resolving gambling market...
Just like communism IRL
Well, communism IRL isn't self-resolving. As you said too,
Manifold staff have full control over who can create market, how to resolve a market, who can invest in a market.
The big admin takes over and resolves every market, and distribute mana to every user. On the bright side, your bet will be processed on 2028-05-25 R at 5 p.m. — a momentous improvement from communism IRL.
In real life, I am a die hard socialist and I think in terms of overall suffering capitalism has and will be the most destructive ideology to our world. That said, within communities there should be allowances for people to strive towards making their own life's better, even at the expense of others, and some level of competition helps overall progress.
In terms of the specific definitions w.r.t. Manifold it should structurally stay as it is while implementing some safeguards and support for people with serious gambling problems. I also think the overall quality of markets should be improved. There is probably a middle ground between excessive moderation, the correct incentives for market creators and better recommendation and search algorithms.
@AlexbGoode I was going to say you are being too serious. Then I saw this
> Oh, and if y'all are looking for a benevolent dictator I am available.
You got my support if Manifold were to go Communism with dictator. Better to overthrow the existing government in the process.
@tornado
"Comrades, the time has come to seize manifold.markets, for too long have the predictions been monopolized by the few, who use their power to sway the outcomes to their advantage. Let us stage a revolution, and take control of these markets, so that the collective wisdom of the masses can guide us towards a future that is fair, transparent, and just for all."
In real life, I am a die hard capitalist/libertarian and I think that in terms of human suffering, communism has been the most destructive ideology. That said, within communities there should be allowances for redistributive measures and for things to not be completely competitive.
In terms of the specific definitions wrt Manifold.
Capitalism
1. I agree
2. Allow, of course. Encourage? Sure, that's how manifold pays the bills
3. Market manipulation is kosher (this has more often than not gone against me), gambling cannot be prevented (you can gamble on any market, even a predictive one), farming bonuses (we should make some rule changes to make this not allowed),
4. Minimal mod involvement is good but does not mean none
Communism
1. WTF, what was the point of having markets where people bet?
2. I don't see how this is communism but basically no.
3. No
4. Please no
That said, within communities there should be allowances for redistributive measures and for things to not be completely competitive.
How about implementing guild system, where guild leaders distribute some of their mana to guild members in exchange for guild membership and loyalty? We could have guild war whalebait market. That could be a lot of fun.
Seems like you don't like Communism Manifold. Unfortunate.