I feel like 'enter a relationship' needs clarifying for me. To go on a date or two or start a more casual relationship? nah; I wouldn't expect to need to disclose a birth defect at this point. Swaps to a yes pretty quickly as the seriousness increases.

@ArtimisFowl

Swaps to a yes pretty quickly as the seriousness increases.

why?

it depends on the circumstances

@Bayesian please elaborate

if you enter the relationship and then tell the person quickly it's ok. if you are trans and it is not affecting you physically or emotionally in any way it's ok. if the person has verbally consented in the past to not being told this kind of information that's ok. etc., but by default i think many ppl would not be ok with getting in a relationship with someone and not being told this / they would feel like this was unfairly hidden, esp if they talked about long-term aspirations that are impossible because of this, or stuff like that. basically in some cases it's acceptable bc you can tell the consequences of that decision aren't bad, whereas in other cases it's not ok bc you can tell the consequences of that decision are bad.

mostly agree with jussi-ville, kinda like a hysterectomy or vasectomy, just ig slightly more than that depending on the cases?

i'll vote no bc in the majority of cases i don't think it's a decent thing to do to be hiding that kind of often relevant information, even though in some cases it's totally justified

@Bayesian what's the principle for deciding what information is not okay for providing up front? For example, surely you wouldn't answer "no" to "Has a dog", or "plays Call of Duty", or "once had a broken arm", or "has erectile dysfunction".

@AffineTyped I don't think it's wrong to not be into certain features a trans person may or may not have which may or may not be desirable, but I also don't think it's wrong for trans people to not divulge it actively. Besides, can't people "always tell" 😉? In reality, if someone asks then you should tell them, and if you come to know that it would matter to them then you should tell them, but by default I don't tell people because the kind of person I want to be with doesn't think of me differently from other women. Across ~20 dates or hookups this has never been a problem, especially since I've told people as soon as I senses telling them would be appreciated or it was asked

@AffineTyped I might answer no to has erectile dysfunction depending on how relevant it seems to be? idk how relevant it is to some ppl but there are some ppl i would definitely feel like it's not ok to not tell about that. has a dog would be fine almost always except if eg the person has said they are allergic to dogs. if most ppl had a lot of distaste toward dogs i would probably find it not ok to not state this fact. if you currently had a permanently broken arm i would think it would be something you should state if it's not visible, but yeah something in the past that is no longer affecting you is fine in almost all cases. plays call of duty ig would depend on the frequency, if it's very life altering i'd better hope you mention it to your partner but if it's a infrequent thing well within the normal range then yeah no need to mention it

@AffineTyped I see. if you can expect most ppl not to mind or see it any differently, ie if the social environment is such that it's implied that ppl are ok with not being told in advance, then that seems sufficient for it to be ok to not divulge imo!

@Bayesian I think based on that answer you may view transness differently than myself and many people. Transness is a process by which one condition, i.e, a sexual assignment and a gender dysphoria go away. Much like the broken arm, I'm not longer suffering from being AMAB

@Bayesian I don't think there has to be an implication that they would be okay not being told, just that there is no to minimal evidence they would not be okay with not being told

@AffineTyped i.e., it's wrong to lie by omission but I don't think the onus should be on trans people to conform to transphobic standards actively

I don't think there has to be an implication that they would be okay not being told, just that there is no to minimal evidence they would not be okay with not being told

My intuition is that this is basically dependent on the social environment's priors? but i think we agree pretty closely, i just think ppl should try to make sure they are not withholding info that would make someone not want to be with them be with them for the mere fact of withholding that info, and like yeah it's not rly "about" if there is "evidence" for or against, it's really your credences should inform you into how to act to be a decent person (using "you" impersonally rn tbc)

Much like the broken arm, I'm not longer suffering from being AMAB

that makes sense. I basically don't have a strong opinion about whether or not it's most sensible to frame it one way or the other (as repaired broken arm being a more apt analogy, but ty for pointing that analogy out) (or whether it depends on cases), but if you think it's likely for the person you might get into a relationship with to view it this way, that's ok, but if you can expect them to view the other way, probably not ok?

@AffineTyped I think we're saying similar things. I don't think trans people should lie by omission to raise their success of getting someone to come home with them, if they believe that's what they're doing. I also don't think trans people should internalize transphobic standards, especially if they're transsexual.

As a thought experiment, imagine one day you wake up as a woman. You're like a 6/10, your voice is different, none of your clothes feel right, and people refuse to accept you were ever a man. Eventually a doctor does believe you, and offers you a potion that reverts you back to the you that you remember being. You obviously take it, and after six months of painful side effects you look exactly how you remember, sound right, your clothes fit, and you're a stud again.

Should you tell future women that you had that experience proactively?

@AffineTyped yeah i also think we are saying similar things. Yeah i think in that case with most ppl you would be justified in not sharing that experience proactively. insofar as the thought experiment is analogous i would judge an analogous situation analogously

@Bayesian I think that most trans people see themselves as self actualized at a certain level of trans sexuality, and asking them to internalize other people's standards proactively is unhelpful. If all a person asks for is a man or a woman, on the trans' person's belief set they fulfill that desiderata. For what it's worth, I don't mind people being explicit about their genital or fertility preference or whatever people will count as the reason to not want to be with a trans person, and I think trans people should be honest with respect to those wishes. It's okay for people to ask others if they're cis or trans, or if they've had certain surgeries done or not, and I think the onus should rest on the party with stronger requirements to make those requirements known than for trans people to have to perceive the baseline rate of those requirements and be up front about them proactively.

@AffineTyped hmm yeah if it's a significant cost to be making that proactive divulging (and i'm sure it is for many people) and you're pretty uncertain that the other person has those stronger requirements that def makes it more acceptable imo to not divulge it. that's making me think. still seems like there's real cost to ppl being expected to ask questions like that if a significant fraction of ppl are not ok with it and the base rate is low, but i'm not sure whether those assumptions hold / where they hold or don't, and what the best policy is

No different than someone having had a totally non gendered hysterectomy or vasectomy or the like. Communication is good.