NO party of Snake Eyes question. Organisational chat.
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This market will resolve to NA, is not used for trading and is only used for discussion: choosing champions and main representative of the NO side from Snake Eyes market, gathering organisational info, talking about writeups. Conversation might migrate to other platform.

https://manifold.markets/dreev/is-the-probability-of-dying-in-the

Is the probability of dying in the Snake Eyes Paradox 1/36?
89% chance. You're offered a gamble where a pair of six-sided dice are rolled and unless they come up snake eyes you get a bajillion dollars. If they do come up snake eyes, you're devoured by snakes. So far it sounds like you have a 1/36 chance of dying, right? Now the twist. First, I gather up an unlimited number of people willing to play the game. I take 1 person from that pool and let them play. Then I take 2 people and have them play together, where they share a dice roll and either get the bajillion dollars each or both get devoured. Then I do the same with 4 people, and then 8, 16, and so on. At some point one of those groups will be devoured by snakes and then I stop. Is the probability that you'll die, given that you're chosen to play, still 1/36? Argument for NO Due to the doubling, the final group of people that die is slightly bigger than all the surviving groups put together. So if you're chosen to play you have about a 50% chance of dying! ๐Ÿ˜ฌ ๐Ÿ Argument for YES The dice rolls are independent and whenever you're chosen, whatever happened in earlier rounds is irrelevant. Your chances of death are the chances of snake eyes on your round: 1/36. ๐Ÿ˜… Clarifications and FAQ The game is not adversarial and the dice rolls are independent and truly random. Choosing each group also happens uniformly randomly and without replacement. The question is about the unrealistic case of an unbounded number of people but we can cap it and say that if no one has died after N rounds then the game ends and no one dies. We just need to then find the limit as N goes to infinity, in which case the probability that no one dies goes to zero. [ANTI-EDIT: This is back to its original form since a couple people had concerns about whether my attempts to clarify actually changed the question. A previous edit called the answer "technically undefined" in the infinite case, which I still believe is true. The other edit removed the part about how the probability of no one dying goes to zero. That was because I noticed it was redundant with item 5 below.] We're asking for a conditional probability: given that you're chosen to play, what is the probability that you die? I.e., what fraction of people chosen to play die [in expectation]? Importantly, in the finite version it's possible for no one to die. But the probability of that approaches zero as the size of the pool approaches infinity. What if "the fraction of people chosen to play who die in expectation" is different from the conditional probability? Answer: we're talking about the conditional probability. We're treating this as a decision theory problem: assuming you want to play the one-shot version, do you still want to play the doubling-groups version? What if the most correct answer is "undefined"? If we went by just the title of this market, that would be NO, but from the beginning we clarified that NO requires the probability to be strictly greater than 1/36, which "undefined" is not. I failed to consider the possible answer of "undefined" when creating this market! So if that's the answer it's going to be hard to have a satisfactory resolution but I think N/A will be the least unsatisfactory in that case. "At some point one of those groups will be devoured by snakes and then I stop" has an implicit "unless I roll non-snake-eyes forever". I.e., we are not conditioning on the game ending with snake eyes. The probability of an infinite sequences of non-snake-eyes is zero and that's the sense in which it's correct to say "at some point snake eyes will happen" but non-snake-eyes forever is possible in the technical sense of "possible". Via David Pennock: The word "given" is being used in the sense of standard conditional probability: what is the probability that you die in the case where you happen, by random chance, to be chosen. "Given" here does not mean being somehow forced to be chosen. (Corollary: The probability of being chosen is zero in the infinite population case.) (FAQs 6-9 were added as clarifications based on questions in the comments. Holler if any feel unfair!) PS: To expand on FAQ8, "probability zero" and "impossible" are mathematically distinct concepts. For example, consider flipping a coin an infinite number of times. Every infinite sequence like HHTHTTHHHTHT... is a possible outcome but each one has probability zero. Resolution criteria For an official resolution we'll write up a proof (or "proof") that the answer is 1/36 and a proof that the answer is ~1/2 (really anything greater than 1/36 would be fine) and then recruit some mathematician(s) to make an independent judgment on which is correct. Or maybe we'll just reach consensus in the comments? Candidate writeups: YES by me NO by Martin Randall UNDEFINED by Trevor G NO by Fintan Costello YES by Wamba Ivanhoe Related markets: Two-round version via simulation (resolved to 1/36) Snibgiblets version that removes all the Bayesian math Anthropic version Ball-and-urn version that tries to be fully non-anthropic (resolved to ~1/2) Golden-brown pancakes (simple conditional probability sanity check) Snake Eyes Variant Y (what I meant this market to be) Snake Eyes Variant N (how NO bettors here interpreted this market) More: https://manifold.markets/group/snakeeyes-paradox
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@KongoLandwalker I don't know how the teams are supposed to come up with their champions. In the end it's up to the market participants, in practice meanwhile up to you.

Anyways, I'd be up to it, as long as no better option (Fintan!) arises. No guarantee that the both of us will not end up "fighting" (cf. Sleeping Beauty).

Lorxus' discord will be the best place for more discussion imho.

@KongoLandwalker What's up dude?

@Primer ๐Ÿ˜บ

@Primer I am on it right now

@Primer give me your discord

@KongoLandwalker primer2004

@Primer you have closed account, i can't add. Add me: kongolandwalker

@MartinRandall could you send you latex text file? I might sacrifice some sleep and learn latex to make additions or to rewrite it.

@KongoLandwalker It is not in latex, I can send it in markdown if you want. What is your discord handle?

[Deleted]

@MartinRandall kongolandwalker is my discord

Lorxus yet ignored my question about which version of the question will be at scope. How can we make a debate when there are 35 versions of the question?

We need another champion for safety.

Does anybody object him being the judge? Thoughts?

@KongoLandwalker Someone first has to accept him as judge...

@Primer that is why i am waiting.

@Primer Are you... not going to accept, yourself?

@KongoLandwalker I think Lorxus would be great, certainly less disputed than a mathematician picked by Daniel. It's really just the tactical reasoning due to the interaction-heavy procedure which makes me hesitate.

Also I have just about 100 Mana invested, I will have profits even with Yes resolution (or in fact any resolution except N/A), so it would not really be fair if I made the decision affecting everyone.

@Primer i don't care about mana. I care only about solving math problems.

@Primer interaction heavy procedures would be a problem for me too.

Wasn't aware of it, but it seems like I'm holding >2k shares. I neither have the time nor the math knowledge nor the dedication.

I hope you,@FintanCostello will be willing to participate. I'm happy to help as much as my schedule allows with "language lawyering".

@Primer Fintan was not active for a month. @MartinRandall decided not to participate.

@KongoLandwalker I think Fintan's writeup does not match both your and my line of reasoning (and neither do our lines of reasoning match, see Sleeping Beauty). Doesn't matter much though, Fintan's writeup is good and all we got anyways.

If it's really just the two of you, I could be convinced to join. But I'd argue my view in a non-tactical manner. So if e.g. an argument of mine could be used to invalidate Fintan's writeup, I won't care much.

@PeterBuyukliev I forgot to mention you in the original invitation

@PeterBuyukliev @NoyaV

Are you taking part in the problem?

@KongoLandwalker My NO position is merely as a gamble, in the off chance someone else comes up with a contrasting proof. That's why I only betted 17 mana. Sorry to disappoint you haha

@KongoLandwalker Hey Kongo, I'm not sure what you expect us to do. We already have some writeups, (which are totally unnecessary anyway). The only actions we can take are 1) whine to mods, which I don't like, 2) suggest a list of mathematicians from Twitter, then DM them ourselves. OP will probably not accept this, of course.

@PeterBuyukliev we have to compile a final writeup. We have to decide before 21 sept whether we accept the rules of the judge (but even if we try to deny, some other person from No with big enough bet could accept. Only one voice is needed).

@PeterBuyukliev maybe you didn't read the updates? Dreev has chosen a single mathematician (anonymous), who proposed a deadline for final writeup. And his process needs champions from each side to defend the positions in possible debates.

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